[aramyus]

The distinction between black hat and white hat is very theoretical. Many white hat practices are in fact totally artificial and marginally ethical.

A better distinction could be  'Follows G rules' or not

My best definition is 'easy to obtain' 'difficult to obtain'.

Links difficult to obtain are usually more valuable. I suspect very few high quality links (eg: IBM, Sun, Oracle...) are enough to replace thousands if not hundreds of thousands of garbage links.

I'd love to experiment.  Any idea of a valid experiment ?

Anyhow: we should not debate on what is white hat or not, but rather on success stories (or failures) using not-too-common practices and hard-to-obtain links.

And in all cases, 'white hat techniques' must be complemented by a certain amount of black hat (eg: pinging, bookmarking, promoting your link baits, boosting your guest posts...)

[HelpEllen.com]

aramyus, on 23 October 2011 - 01:33, said:

The distinction between black hat and white hat is very theoretical. Many white hat practices are in fact totally artificial and marginally ethical.

A better distinction could be  'Follows G rules' or not

My best definition is 'easy to obtain' 'difficult to obtain'.

Links difficult to obtain are usually more valuable. I suspect very few high quality links (eg: IBM, Sun, Oracle...) are enough to replace thousands if not hundreds of thousands of garbage links.

I'd love to experiment.  Any idea of a valid experiment ?

I suppose it would be easy enough to do the following experiment, for any serious SEO tester:

Pick a niche.

Build 2 different blogs in the niche using different but same-quality type of content.

Throw thousands of low-quality links at blog A.

Throw a few dozen high-PR links at blog B.

See what happens!

[aramyus]

In principle, you are right on the method, Ellen

But there are many practical details to solve:

For example, we could create a white hat site on 'over the range microwave' to be able to compare with Terry's experiment (http://trafficplanet.com/topic/130-traffic-planet-live-seo-experiment-1-forum-profile-judgement-day/)

But it's not really possible to get authority links on such a narrow subject.  I have personally no interest for this subject. And I don't know any freelance who could supply 'quality links'  (unless they are patented SEO experts, freelancers provide only semi-spammy links).

Also, it's fairly easy to get traffic on a new site. There is a considerable advantage given to novelty. It does not mean the site will resist to the various Google dances. So is the comparison really relevant ?

Generally speaking, authority sites are not really compatible with microniches.

On an other hand, we could start a fresh white hat site.  I have one on the burner, but I'm not too sure I want to publicize the subject and compete with black hat sites.

These are just a few objections that come to my mind.

[JSP]

Anyone who says they're "white hat" is most likely wrong.  At the VERY least, most of us are living on the "grey hat" line.  And honestly, most of us are closer to black hat than we think.

[ARVolund]

HelpEllen.com, on 24 October 2011 - 15:23, said:

I suppose it would be easy enough to do the following experiment, for any serious SEO tester:

Pick a niche.

Build 2 different blogs in the niche using different but same-quality type of content.

Throw thousands of low-quality links at blog A.

Throw a few dozen high-PR links at blog B.

See what happens!

Really though there is no difference between your examples. B is just as black hat as A you are just doing it with  better quality links.  

Google wants you to build a great site and wait for the visitors and links to appear just because your site is great. If you do anything more than that then you really are not completely "white hat"

[junkdna]

There is no such thing as White Hat SEO.

Google's guidelines clearly say that any self-serving action is not approved. If you go and leave a nice, 100% relevant comment in a nice, non-spammed blog that is still hard core black hat. Simply put, it wasn't done by a third party genuine visitor to your site, who just thought that other visitors would benefit from your brilliant site.

Whole Whit-Gray-Black SEO stuff was invented by SEO consultant's sales people in order to address worries of customers who are suspect that SEO is something doggy and illegal. But Black/White division is purely fictional.

Edited by junkdna, 18 December 2011 - 01:43.

[Scorched]

For me it depends on the Tier.

Money site is backlinked using White Hat methods like Article writing, youtube videos and other kinds of manual submissions. Though I do make several web 2.0 blogs which is probably grey hat.

My 2nd tier I spam with automated services which is more blackhat than grey.

[Fishingman1]

Well according to G if you manipulate in anyway the search results it's not allowed.
So unless you build build a site do nothing wait around a thousand years to get to page one.
All else is so called black hat.

[SeoBoy]

seo has now become evil.. if you stay white hat then grey hat or white hat seo will outrank you..

[juliemalone]

I think it depends on the stage.
Money site is back linked using White Hat techniques like Article writing, YouTube videos and other forms of manual deference. Nevertheless I do make more than a few web 2.0 blogs, which is almost certainly grey hat.

Business Logo Design | Logo Design

[junkdna]

Division on white & black hat is completely subjective.

For most SEO people it goes something like this: what I do is white hat, what others are doing is black hat.

Weather one is using manual labor or automation doesn't affect morality of the deed. I would say that all self serving actions are black hat. Strictly speaking all SEO is black hat.

[Kok Choon]

I agree with you junkdna..

White hat SEO is something that attract backlinks rather than build them, while blackhat SEO is producing backlinks rather than attract them naturally, that's my understanding of how Google define it..

See my post: http://www.seospeedsight.com/seoforum/seo-strategies-discussion/black-hat-vs-white-hat-how-leverage-both-for-short-and-long-term-seo-benefits/

[SeoGuy1]

Shortly or in few words,  white hat seo is that what is allowed by the search engine, visible by humans, can take some time to implement and their result will last for long time. On the other hand black hat seo is no allowed by search engine, not visible by humans, may deliver quick results but results are often for short time.

[junkdna]

@SeoGuy1

I agree with everything you said, except on long term. In SEO, if you stop, you drop. Regardless on the method you use.

How long you last depends on the level of competition. I have a local site, for which I build few gray hat links every month and I hold six #1 positions, no matter how little work I do. Quite opposite to that, in e-cigs, competition is fierce (but money is good) and if I stop I start dropping in a week or two.

Essentially, white hat is for you if you are earning your main money somewhere else, from something else and SEO is just one of many sale channels on your disposal. Or if you are providing White Hat SEO service. But if you are trying to earn full time living from Affiliate, CPA etc. stuff, than you gray hat is more or less the only profitable way.

Edited by junkdna, 27 December 2011 - 06:29.

[ARVolund]

nanexo, on 08 January 2012 - 04:42, said:

@junkdna

No doubt your post. Various techniques are used for search engine optimization. One way to group these techniques is with hat terminology: white hat SEO, black hat SEO, and gray hat SEO. White hat SEO is considered ethical SEO, while black hat SEO is considered unethical SEO. Gray hat SEO walks the line between the white and black hats of search engine optimization.

If you ask 10 people to define the difference between white, gray, and black hat seo you will probably get 10 different answers.

[Dan]

who cares, just want to make as much £££ $$$ as i can

[Alan]

I think it's obvious what works now. What's not so obvious is what's going to work tomorrow. As Google makes more and more updates, you want to be as close as you can to where they're going. As soon as they flip the switch on something (ie: social) it's good to have a little future proofing already done so that you're not behind, or at least too far behind, when it happens.

[jadejade128]

what are the process's of blackhat SEO? is it automated? Manual Link Building is whitehat?

[amandeep]

Using black hat SEO to optimize your webpage is something you would be best advised to avoid. Black hat SEO may seem successful in a matter of days. But make no mistake ? more often than not, search engine bots will sniff out the unusual patterns and either start to ignore your website or completely ban it. Most website owners and administrators would want to steer clear of black hat SEO and only use white hat techniques.

[Greg Fowler]

If you listen to Matt Cutt's who is head of the webspam team at Google and an Engineer for them, the best way to get links is for those that naturally link to your site.  I agree with that.  However, not everyone is going to link to your site and you have to be agressive in a way to appear in the search engine results.  For example, we are all in a forum, the forum provides links back to our site, based on Matt Cutt's ideology of getting links that could be considered spamming, in the eyes of Google.  However, it is not, if the owner of the forum has said, by the way you can have you links in the signature as long as you follow the forum rules.  Now, who is correct?  The forum owner or Matt?  The forum owner is allowed to do what he pleases with his site.  Just like any other website.  If have ten websites and I decide to place your link on them, who is to say that is different than those that naturally link to you.  There is a fine line between placing your links across the web, and webspamming place to appear higher in the search engine results.  The bottom line is this, and the point where I do agree with Matt Cutt's, is if you are placing links across the web without a long term benefit to your website, then you are spamming and the short term benefits will outweight the consequences.  Your site, as the owner, should have a strategic plan, short term, medium term, and long term to get it to where you want it to be in the search engine placements.  Believe me, I would love to have a great way to end up number one for a couple of keyword that I have in mind, but the fact of the matter is the search engine techology is changing everyday, what may have worked last month may not work now, and you have to keep testing and evaluting your methods to achieve the rankings.